Paging AMGTech, El_Uly, 505Turbeaux, other auto shopponauts. 

"RallyWrench" (rndlitebmw) 07/17/2015 at 15:25 • Filed to: Auto Repair

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I know there are many more of you out there, but I can only get so many in the headline!

I’ve been stewing on this article idea for the past couple of days, and would like some input.

While I like & respect his work, Steve Lehto’s clickbait-y !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! about mechanics ripping people off has predictably brought out the pitchforks, because obviously all shops are populated with criminals. AMGTech did a good little piece (which I can’t seem to find right now) on ways customers perceive things awhile back, but I’d like to write a detailed piece covering the myriad ways in which our industry is misunderstood. So far, the following points have come to mind: the challenges we face (individual and industry), the changes we’ve made, the ways customers’ perception can differ from fact, the realities of customer service, supply chains, technician pay, the costs of doing business, ethics, the future of the industry, and so on.

It won’t be the work of a moment, but I enjoy writing and it’s something I’d like to work on, so I’m asking for your help. If you have ever worked in the automotive repair industry, be it parts, service, shop management, or in some other capacity, I’d appreciate your input. I don’t want the piece to be one man’s rant. It needs to be balanced and well considered, and that means using multiple sources.

There are defective personalities in every industry, but people seem awfully fond of bashing the automotive service sector. It’s admittedly low hanging fruit, but the level of misinformation out there has to be addressed somehow. It’ll probably get buried in vitriol, but it’s worth a shot.

As if to punctuate this, a guy just walked earlier this week asking for a free scan and diagnosis of his E46 325i (that seems like it needs a throttle), and stated, “I don’t want anything fixed, I can fix it for free myself.” Well sure, sir, let me just fire up my $12,000 + $1500 updates specialty diagnostic platform and drop my work for paying customers to whom I’ve already made time commitments so that I can use my 19 years of experience, meaningless Master certs, $60k in tools, and thousands of dollars/hours of training for free! I scanned it OBD Generic and ran down the list of possibilities as politely as possible, but come on, man, you can’t just sit in a nice restaurant if you don’t order anything.

Thanks in advance to any and all who contribute, I appreciate the input.

Sam > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:28

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If you want to include detailing shops, I can be of service. People often thought they were getting ripped of when they weren’t. And when they were, they never noticed.

thebigbossyboss > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:31

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But I like my mechanic. He charged me a half hour labour to diagnose and change the tie rod end. Plus once one of his employees saved me the tax on a tow by paying it himself and then I paid him back.

There are both good and bad mechanics though. Luckily I seemed to have found the best.

RallyWrench > thebigbossyboss 07/17/2015 at 15:33

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You never hear about the good ones on the internets. Hang on to that guy, loyalty is appreciated.

RallyWrench > Sam 07/17/2015 at 15:33

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I’ll take it. If it’s people spending money on cars, it fits.

thebigbossyboss > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:35

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I might not be in town too much longer, but I’ve been going there since I got my mighty Cavalier in 2010.

I don’t always go for oil changes because I have to walk far and Canada is cold sometimes, but anything beyond that yes.

Party-vi > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:42

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WHY DO THEY GIVE ME BREADSTICKS AND WATER IF I CAN’T JUST SITE THERE!?!?

ly2v8-Brian > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:43

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It's like everything else, you have good and scum.

Thisnewformatisrubbish > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 15:49

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I used to work at O’Reilly and people get mad when the parts guy won’t fix it free, give a discount on parts or the worst, they want to take the part, install it, and pay if only it fixes the problem.

RallyWrench > Party-vi 07/17/2015 at 15:57

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Exactly. I give loads of free advice, spend hours and hours on the phone, do free scans, and a million other things, but it’s not enough apparently.

RallyWrench > ly2v8-Brian 07/17/2015 at 15:58

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And the scum get all the press, disheartening the good.

RallyWrench > Thisnewformatisrubbish 07/17/2015 at 16:01

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Seen it a million times. People often bring in parts and ask us to install them, but don’t understand why we won’t warranty them or guarantee the repair, and get mad when the part they guessed at doesn’t fix the car.

ly2v8-Brian > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 16:04

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Hey, shit sells.

EL_ULY > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 16:08

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I think one of the main issues if people fast food mentality. They have issues with their car (things that are clearly their fault) and they feel obligated to never pay because “it’s not their fault it broke” Already pissed, they want the work for next to nothing and bitch when it takes more than 30 seconds to fix. Customers are out for blood.

On the contrary, you have those awesome customers that actually give you a detailed explanation of their issue (this goes a long way when trying to diag those oddball issues). They are understanding about how parts need to be special ordered, some warranty things need pre approval, proper testing, and other things we do to make sure the vehicle is correct.

We want the cars to be fixed right the first time PERIOD. We hate being back flagged, rechecks, and bad CSI surveys. Customers being dicks do not help anything.

Of course, when we help out customers with discounts from regional managers, not charging for some random pieces, free bulbs and random little things, helping them with their rentals/loaner cars, etc. the public will never hear this and worst of all, the customers still seem to cry.

But according to Jalopnik, sales and service have only one goal, to rip you off.

RallyWrench > EL_ULY 07/17/2015 at 16:11

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True, true, true. Thanks man. I think “Don’t be a dick” needs to be a section in the piece.

EL_ULY > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 16:16

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it’s not really that they are dicks, I can understand financial issues and stuff, but more so, customers have to understand that:

we don’t have every part in stock

things sometimes are back order

somethings have long diag steps

we want to figure out the problem as well

there are other elements during the repair we might encounter (rust,old clips, etc.)

yes, we didn’t hear the noise

those parts do cost that much

etc.

RallyWrench > EL_ULY 07/17/2015 at 16:34

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All true, again. Being a dick has nothing to do with financial reality, some of the best and nicest clients we have are folks who are just trying to keep an old machine running because they can’t afford anything else, and we help them out to best of our ability, even taking payments in some cases.

EL_ULY > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 17:18

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indeed. More so in your shop I can see. Here, those cool peeps are rear. Still though man, when you read all these dealer service horror stories, the common thing that seems to start the problem and piss people off more (even really good people) is when there is a lack of communication. Some people even say fuck it to the cost and time, but seem to not except the fact that there was a lack of timely communication

Snuze: Needs another Swede > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 17:58

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I’d love to read a piece like this. I think I’m a pretty even keel kind of guy and when I see all these “horror stories” I tend think one of 2 things... either the shop really is that awful (and there are unscrupulous shops out there) or the person regaling the tale is an asshat and we’re only hearing their side of it (contrary to popular belief, the customer isn’t always right - sometimes they’re a moron).

I have a couple great mechanics in my area and have yet to have a bad experience with any of them. I do basic maintenance myself (rotate tires, change oil) and have even been known to tackle moderate projects (shocks, trans fluids, pinon seal etc.) when I have the time/space/tools. But I don’t anymore due to apartment living, so to me, there is nothing like having a good, skilled mechanic for when you don’t have the time to dick with something or the knowledge to do it yourself.

I think El_Uly got it half right, a huge problem is the “fast food” mentality. People want things done and want them yesterday. Not having a car is an inconvenience, and who likes to be inconvenienced? “So wave your magic wrench mechanic man and fix my car so I can go about my day.” We’re so spoiled by technology and Amazon Prime Now and all that other garbage, we don’t want to wait.

I’ll tell you the truth, I also think in some cases there’s some “classism” going on there. People tend to look down their noses at tradesmen, or “unskilled” laborers. We as a society put an absurd value on a little piece of paper you get after paying through the nose to attend college. And don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this is intentional, although I know more than a few “I went to college so I’m better than everyone” types, but I think it happens. Kind of ties back into my point above - they have to get on about their day and the longer you take to fix their car the longer they have to wait to get a Starbucks and go home and get their Amazon Prime Now delivery.

Lastly, I think there’s a trust issue, and this goes 2 ways. I worked for years in the construction industry with my dad as electrical contractors, and have seen a lot of different types of people. But to be really general there’s the “know-it-all” camp, and the “I know I don’t know shit camp,” and the blows rain down from both sides. The “know-it-alls” are exactly like you described in a response in here, the guy who comes in and wants you to drop everything and give them a free diagnostic so they can go home and do the work themselves. And when they are confronted with a problem they can’t fix, their machismo gets the better of them and they refuse to admit they can’t fix it. So then you get the “I could fix this, but I don’t have the time” type attitude. This means they want it fixed fast and cheap “because I could totally do this”, and so they have little regard for you time. These are also obviously the types that have no idea how a business works so they will question the cost of every nut and bolt, etc.

The “I know I don’t know shit” camp is a little trickier because they fall into 2 sub categories. The ones you want are the ones who think “I know I don’t know how to fix this car - that’s why I’m taking it to an expert.” But usually you get the “I know I don’t know how to fix this car - so I’m going to assume this asshole mechanic knows this and is going to take every opportunity to screw me.” These are the ones who come in defensive and question everything. Alot of them started as the previous type but did get burned by a bad mechanic so now assume all mechanics are out to get them.

I used to see the same types in construction. And I think ultimately this kind of thing happens with any technical field. No one goes into the grocery store and loses their mind about vegetables. It’s a plant... you put the seed in the dirt, water it, and it grows. People can understand that. But a car, computer, house, etc. is way more complicated and most people can’t wrap their brains around it (not to say they aren’t smart, just maybe have no interest in learning about it). So you end up with people who do try to educate themselves (with misinformation) and turn into know-it-alls or just give up join the I-don’t-know-shit crowd.

RallyWrench > EL_ULY 07/17/2015 at 18:11

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True yet again. The hardest part of my job is keeping up with the volume of repair orders and keeping clients in the loop. I’m often practically alone in the office, so it’s pretty stressful, and I’ll admit I’ve probably pissed clients off simply because I couldn’t call them when they expected, but I try my damndest to stay ahead. I’ve often got over 5 different repair orders on my desk at any one time, plus other estimates I’m putting together for call backs and scheduling. It sucks. That said, it doesn’t help when clients say they need a car by a certain time, then get mad when it’s not done several hours before that. Today’s a pretty relaxed day, with a few big jobs taking up most of the time, or I wouldn’t have time to write this.

EL_ULY > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 18:16

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me and you both dude. it has been a very slow friday. I don’t remember the last time I was so active here or LaLD on one day. Opposite of the 2 weeks of hell when I was running our Aston/Lotus parts alone. Literally hundreds of thousands of dollars every set of days worth of orders and what seemed like a million phone calls. We try dude but like any place, shit gets tied up and even as pros, we make mistakes, even small avoidable ones

RallyWrench > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/17/2015 at 18:16

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That’s a really thoughtful analysis, thanks. I’ll come back to it in more detail later.

AntisocialCarpetbagger > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 18:21

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I’ve spent over half my live surrounded by damaged cars, via 5 years in the automotive salvage industry, and 14 and counting in collision repair. I’ve been fortunate enough to work at shops that are quality and service driven (save for one short stint in a dealership operation). One of the unique factors in my industry is the involvement of three parties in most repairs. The customer, the insurance carrier, and the repair facility. Customers typically (and understandably) want the repair done promptly and perfectly as possible, as does the repairer, generally speaking. Unfortunately, some insurance carriers tend to want the repair done promptly as well, but with price being their second criteria.

Fixing a decent condition (5 year old, 70k miles) Altima a few years ago, the carrier insisted on an aftermarket radiator support (headlamps, radiator & condenser mount to it, ties your aprons to front frame rails structurally in most cases, controls front of fender alignment and hood latching position), headlamp and bumper, with a repair to a fender and a hood, if memory serves correct. The radiator support on these is a composite that bolts into the car, as opposed to a more traditional welded in support. The first two supports that the insurance carrier’s aftermarket vendor provided us were so poorly constructed that we were unable to get the hood, fender, or headlamp to line up with any of their adjacent panels, much less attempt to test fit a bumper cover. Informed the insurance carrier we’ve thrown two poorly made aftermarket radiator supports at the car, and we don’t have a gap gauge large enough to measure the misalignment (it was pretty bad). A request for an OEM Nissan built radiator support (available next day) was denied, so the carrier could inspect the vehicle. We’re already at the breaking point of meeting our initial target date for the repair (we need a rad support in the car and sheetmetal aligned to get it into paint, which will be the better part of a day). To make a long story short, the carrier requested one more non-OEM support, which didn’t fit, before authorizing the OEM. Once the Nissan support was installed, everything fell into place with little to no fight, including the aftermarket lamp and cover (somewhat surprisingly). I’m sure you’re familiar with the “don’t shoot the messenger” adage. We were a week late on the repairs, and the honor of maintaining all of the contact that was required due to the insurance carriers parts policies and decisions was left up to, you guessed it, the repair facility. I spent hours explaining the situation to the owners, meeting them after hours to show them their car and our concerns, all so the insurance carrier could take one last hail mary attempt at saving less than $150 (I think it was) on a knockoff radiator support that we’d already installed twice. We presumably would have been vilified by those customers to all their friends, family, and coworkers if we’d not taken the time to keep them informed (“this shop was a week late and charged more than the first estimate, and they’re trying to blame the insurance company! The gall, they’re the ones fixing it, not the insurance carrier!”).

Some customers are insured by carriers we’re not “network” or “preferred” by (usually our desire, not theirs), meaning they won’t honor our estimates, they want to compose their own. This isn’t a problem at all, we’ll gladly work off of their estimates, and supplement them (request a reinspection to address unseen items/items not visible prior to disassembly) for the items they’ve inevitably omitted. Poorly written estimates can be a problem for a few reasons. We preorder parts for roadworthy vehicles prior to scheduling the job in for repair, to prevent part delays. Secondly, repair time is calculated based upon total labor hours on the estimate. This becomes a rather large problem when the customer doesn’t have rental expense coverage, or a second car to drive while theirs is in the shop, and the insurance carrier has written an abomination of an estimate. I was lucky enough to be involved with such a situation just a few weeks ago. 2005 Chevy Silverado 1500, customer had ironed the 6.5’ bedside flat from just behind the wheel opening to just forward of the taillamp and bumper. The insurance appraiser had written 1/3 of the labor hours to repair the panel, missed damage to the bumper step pad, wrote to polish a taillamp that wasn’t scratched, but had a chunk of the lens missing (how do I polish what isn’t there?), didn’t write to remove a bedliner that overlapped the damaged bedside, nor replace the 4x4 decal. The poor customer had saved up to rent a car for the three days the insurance carrier had noted on their estimate. I told him we’d need the car for more along the lines of eight days, counting weekends, and he was about to pop. After going over what was missing on the estimate, how the truck needed to be repaired, and walking him through the shop to show him metal repairs in process, refinishing prepwork and material application (read: painting) in process, polishing, detailing, material curing times, paint variants & blending operations, etc, he understood. We called the number provided on his estimate to request reviews, and his carrier advised us they don’t reinspect estimates until the car is in the shop, disassembled. I pleaded that the estimate was so poorly written we couldn’t achieve much of anything based upon it, and they still denied. Put the customer on the phone with his carrier, he explained his rental situation and concern that the truck not sit waiting on them, and then wait further once they’ve authorized parts. They still denied. Ultimately, we lost three days on that repair waiting on their reinspection. Not surprisingly, given the amount of bitching both the customer and I had done, the appraiser AND his supervisor came out to reinspect the vehicle. Supervisor immediately agreed that his appraisers repair time for the bedside was less than half of what it honestly should be (they wrote 4, ended up paying 12), that the bedliner needed to be removed, the taillamp needed to be replaced, the chrome bumper needed to be removed in order to repair and refinish (as opposed to just unbolting the right side, as the appraiser had written, suggesting that we somehow bend high strength fucking steel out of the way as if it were a pliable TPO cover), as well as a number of other items. The insurance carrier managed to get their customers name, telephone number, and VIN on the estimate, and acknowledge that the truck had been damaged, and that was the absolute end of the accuracy to that estimate. Yet again, repair shops bear the burden of making up for the ineptitude of the insurance carrier.

OK, I’ve got tons more (and I just went on an insurance tangent, not really lousy customers, per se), but I’m long winded, getting drunk and angry thinking about work. Thanks for letting me vent, Oppo.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > RallyWrench 07/17/2015 at 18:21

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Thank you, glad you appreciated it. Like I said, I haven’t worked in the automotive sector, but I was in construction, and that’s just kind of my take on how customers behave.

RallyWrench > AntisocialCarpetbagger 07/17/2015 at 18:24

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Thanks for the detailed reply, I’ll come back to it later after work. For now, out of the gray with you! Venting is all good, it’ll be beer:30 for me in about 2 hours too.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > RallyWrench 07/18/2015 at 03:58

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Thanks for the shout out! Wish I’d gotten here sooner, it’s been crazy the last few weeks leaving me hardly any time for Oppo. Here’s that write up I did a while back, feel free to elaborate on things or just get some ideas.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/nine-things-yo…

Technician pay would definitely be a good one to cover. For example, I made a whopping 68 hours last pay period, even though I worked more like 100. Normally, I’m the highest producer, and have the least comebacks, while still doing an inordinate amount of diagnostics and babysitting (read: training/mentoring). It’s just been weeks of free and low-paying shit work, coupled with the lack of a person to book warranty lines (she recently moved on to bigger and better things, good for her, she deserves it). These small paychecks happen, it’s fine, it’s just the way this industry works. But if I charge a customer 2 hours to do their brakes because that’s what the book says, then get them done in 1.5 hours that customer just might blow a [figurative] head gasket because “THAT’S WRONG!”. Oh, sorry, I apologize for having done 300 brake jobs on Youbian Pumas this week alone and knowing exactly which tools are required and being great at my job on top of that. My mistake. Next time I will be sure to be less awesome just for you.

Cascading or compound problems don’t mean you’re being ripped off. Sometimes you find multiple failed items all contributing to a single concern. For example, I have an AMG in the shop right now that keeps setting mixture adaptation faults. Initially I found a sizable vacuum leak, which I repaired using a 10¢ seal rather than replace a $2k manifold (which is the recommended repair). Made sure there were no more leaks, threw in a free software update for good measure, and shipped the car. Came back a few days ago and the customer was irate that his problem had returned. Well, long story short, I found his fuel pump volume was just a tad on the low side (not low enough to be measurable accurately or consistently in the average shop, so it came down to ruling everything else out) causing a lean condition. These two problems cause the exact same symptom, and 90% of the time it’s just a vacuum leak on these, but he swears up and down that it was misdiagnosed from the start. I’ve even got an engineer backing up my diagnosis path on this one but the customer won’t hear it. Could be an issue of poor communication from the advisor though.

The service advisor is not a technician. They’re often clueless. Don’t judge your mechanic based on what the service advisor says or tries to sell.

Rants over. Sorry, like I said it’s been crazy lately. I’m looking forward to reading what you come up with.

RallyWrench > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 07/18/2015 at 12:43

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Glad you found this, thanks for the link and good talking points!